Talk:Vinland Map

Sunday Times article and Floyd Book

There ia an article on page 5 of The Sunday Times' main section of 2 June 2013 on the Vinland map if someone will put in the link. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC) (correcting again)

I have added a short summary of the new discoveries by J.P. Floyd, with links to the relevant Sunday Times (paywalled, sorry) and Daily Mail articles. I have also taken the liberty of adding a link to Floyd's original press-release, posted on the Maphist discussion list, as it contains a list of source references. David Trochos (talk) 12:02, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. There was also a program on TV channel Dave on the map recently. One claim made was that it was an interwar pious fraud. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

... or it may have been Quest TV channel. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:48, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yup, it was Quest (and there's an illegal copy currently available on Youtube). Unfortunately, the documentary isn't actually very good- at times you can even sense that some of the "experts" (who, apart from Kirsten Seaver, have not hitherto been known in connection with the Map) are basing their statements on this very Wikipedia article! David Trochos (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

'Category of channels one watches occasionally and which have the same feel' :)

Is it agreed that 'the sheet of vellum' belongs with the other two documents - even if the map itself is of uncertain origin.

If the map had surfaced after the discovery of the Viking site attitudes towards it might have been rather different. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Funnily enough, one thing the Quest show did get just right was to show the map as two half-sheets of vellum rather than 'the sheet of vellum'. As the carbon dating puts them exactly contemporary with the "Speculum" manuscript, and they are just the right size, they are almost certainly taken from it.

On your last statement- for public purposes, the Map did surface after the original 1964 National Geographic feature on the Ingstads' discoveries, which complicates the situation somewhat! David Trochos (talk) 07:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I recall reading the proverbial somewhere that Columbus became aware that the Bristol merchants/fishermen in their ships had reached the American coastal areas, and so knew that the journey was feasible (even if they did not know it was not Asia).

I think this is veering towards OR - if you wish we can continue the discussion here [1] and return to WP with a summary. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:32, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Floyd would seem to have to demonstrate that the 1892 and 1926 references are to the exact same copies as are today connected by the guided? wormhole evidence. After that, the only connection between 1926 and ca. 1957 is that the book dealer was convicted of stealing books from the very library that Floyd claims held the book referenced in 1892 and 1926.

Can we complete the second part (if Floyd has not already done so), by determining whether the remaining institutional marks mentioned in the article are compatible only with the library that experienced theft by the book dealer? Fotoguzzi (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

This isn't the place to discuss my provenance findings or their implications, but since they're mentioned in the article I can maybe add a little clarification: (i) yes, I believe I can convincingly demonstrate that both the 1893 catalogue and 1926 book references relate to the self-same manuscripts that are now at Yale; (ii) the 1893 reference places the manuscripts (sans map) in La Seo Cathedral Library; (iii) the 1926 book contains documents written by a Spanish priest who died in 1908, and the reference to the manuscripts is among these; (iv) the 1926 book does not mention La Seo or Zaragoza, and seems to suggest - on the face of it - that the priest encountered the manuscripts elsewhere, in Palencia; (v) there are nevertheless very strong reasons for thinking that the priest actually saw the documents during the 1892-3 exposition in Madrid, and that the Palencia reference is due to an editorial error; (vi) the description in the 1926 book indirectly sheds some very revealing light on the inscription on the reverse of the Vinland Map, which has been tampered with in order to obscure its original meaning. There is no definitive proof that the manuscripts could not have left La Seo at some point between 1893 and 1957, but I do consider it highly likely that they formed part of Ferrajoli's plunder in the mid-1950s. (The fact that the official list of missing items doesn't mention them is inconclusive, since the listing is demonstrably incomplete). As regards the institutional ink mark, I suspect that there is no practical way of linking it to a specific library, given that so little of it remains; and in any case I regard the La Seo connection as proved on the basis of the literary evidence. As regards the authenticity issue, I think it is clear beyond doubt that the mapmaker made use of the 1782 engraving by Vincenzio Formaleoni, and that the Vinland Map cannot therefore be a medieval artefact. I am sorry that it is taking so long for my full study to be released, and would like to sincerely apologise to those who have been in touch with me directly, and whose kind comments and very welcome criticisms I have inexcusably put off answering - J.P. Floyd 82.132.236.215 (talk) 12:20, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Floyd's findings sound very interesting, but until his book (or article?) is actually published (if only self-published), this can hardly be considered to meet the Wikipedia definition of a reliable source (RS). His actual press release, FWIW, is at http://www.maphist.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=360 . At the very minimum, this should be cited directly, rather than via press accounts. HuMcCulloch (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the above paragraph certainly wasn't intended for inclusion in the article. Basically it's just a summary of the main points contained in the press accounts, which I thought some might find helpful. At the present time, the published press accounts remain the sole "reliable sources" in Wikipedia terms. - J.P. Floyd 85.255.235.52 (talk) 13:39, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The reference Hu mentions has been listed in the article for years (though it was dead for a while)- currently ref. 32. David Trochos (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I have moved Floyd's WP:SPS press release to the External Links section, and have removed the section in the text based on it, per above discussion. The fact that the press release was picked up by various newspapers does not make it any less self-published. I look forward to seeing Floyd's book, if and when it appears. HuMcCulloch (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

The books Mr Floyd cites are reliable sources for the former existence of at least one very similar "Hystoria Tartarorum"/"Speculum" manuscript in Zaragoza, the known locus of Ferrajoli's robberies. I have provided a revised restoration of the information, with references to the books cited. As we have discussed elsewhere, I feel it is important to give Mr Floyd recognition for this discovery, however informal its publication, so I have also restored information about his work, again with slight revisions. David Trochos (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The books Floyd cites are undigested Primary Sources that are only suitable for WP if interpreted by reliable secondary sources. Your interpretation of them here is Original Research, and hence unsuitable for WP. Floyd's interpretation of them in his press release is a Self-Published Source, and hence unsuitable for WP. His still unpublished book sounds like it will be very interesting when it eventually comes out, but is still unpublished. I suggest he submit a short, dry article to a cartographic journal in order to get his discovery on the record in a suitable outlet. Such an article will also give him some authority to help him get his book published. HuMcCulloch (talk) 20:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The books Floyd cites are not primary sources, they are secondary academic works compiling information about primary source materials. More specifically, the passages of interest are pre-1957 descriptions of a manuscript volume from northern Spain (or just possibly two similar volumes) containing the Historia Tartarorum, which the authors judge to be of 15th century date. Please explain what in my revised wording is my interpretation rather than merely a summary of what the books say about the manuscript(s) under consideration. Bear in mind too that the press reports cannot be unreliable sources for the existence of the books, or of the Speculum/HT references within them (because the books exist, and contain the relevant passages), or of Mr Floyd's discovery of the existence of the books, or of Mr Floyd's suggestion that the passages are relevant (because Mr Floyd has confirmed that he did discover that the books existed, and did suggest that the passages are relevant). David Trochos (talk) 09:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The 1893 catalog, Perez Pastor's 1926 list of documents, and the 1783 Formaleoni map are all primary sources with respect to the VM, since they are said to be somehow relevant, yet do not themselves discuss the VM. Interpreting them as relevant to the VM is either Floyd's SPS secondary source or else your own OR addition. I suggest that Mr. Floyd send a note (which need not be much longer than his 2013 press release) to Terrae Incognitae, The Map Collector, Mercator's World, or Imago Mundi, all of which are specialty cartographic journals that have published articles on the VM and therefore might be particularly interested. There may be other journals, eg Alvismal, which published a review of Seaver's book, that might be interested as well. This would get his suggestions officially recognized, and make it RS enough for WP. HuMcCulloch (talk) 02:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Again: the primary source with respect to the VM is the Zaragoza manuscript, specifically because the secondary sources provide the only known pre-1957 description of a manuscript which might be Beinecke MS350/350A, but do not mention the VM. David Trochos (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Edit (following much ebook reading): JP Floyd's new book, though imperfect, is very informative indeed, and certainly makes the case for copying from the 18th century engraving in absolute and irrefutable detail. David Trochos (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if I might come in at this point to give my own take on this debate... I can honestly say I have been scrupulous about not adding anything to the article to promote myself or my findings. I have to agree that my 2013 press release cannot really be considered a "reliable source," and as such might be better relegated to the External Links section rather than cited as a reference. However, I think the proposal to remove the entire paragraph is unjustified, as it is mostly based upon the Sunday Times article. In justice to the journalist who wrote that article, it cannot be dismissed as a mere regurgitation of my press release ("churnalism"). I know that he took great care to fact-check the story, including contacting Yale and the British Library (and he had previously reported on Kirsten Seaver's work). So I would say the Sunday Times report can certainly be considered "RS enough for WP". The reason I have not attempted to have my findings published in an academic article is simple: I am not an academic, and do not crave academic recognition. I do not pretend to have any expertise in the fields of cartography or manuscript studies. I put forward my findings simply because I thought they were interesting, and felt that people might like to know about them. I wasn't going to mention my book here at all, but I hope I may be allowed to correct the statement that it has not been published. It was actually "independently published" (OK... self-published!) at the end of last month as A Sorry Saga: Theft, Forgery, Scholarship... and the Vinland Map (ISBN-13: 978-1719979788). I have intentionally set the price of the paperback version prohibitively high, to discourage people from buying it until I have fixed some issues with the index. I appreciate that, as a self-published work by a non-expert author, it will not qualify for inclusion as a reference in the main article. - J.P. Floyd 90.241.110.235 (talk) 13:11, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Mr. Floyd, I'm excited to obtain a copy, but at 449.00 I think I'll wait until the index is fixed, unless that price is yen! See https://www.amazon.in/Sorry-Saga-Forgery-Scholarship-Vinland-ebook/dp/B07G8XQSYV . I'd say it's not even "self-published" until the price comes down to e-book norms. At that time I'd be happy to add an EL to it, self-published or not. A WP "XLBot" just came in to undo a external link to next week's Mystic Seaport symposium, apparently on the grounds that it looked like an advertisement. Any link to your book might similarly be automatically reversed, but XLBot can be overridden by interested users. HuMcCulloch (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Not yen, it's rupees! You've managed to stumble upon the Indian version of the site (.in) :) 90.241.110.235 (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess I didn't recognize the rupee symbol! It's only $59.95 in paperback at https://www.amazon.com/Sorry-Saga-Forgery-Scholarship-Vinland/dp/1719979782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537625489&sr=8-1&keywords=floyd+sorry+saga , or free in the Kindle version (for Amazon Prime members only?) I've ordered the paperback and will try adding an EL to it. Once this has been reviewed in one of the Cartography journals or other reputable places, there would IMHO be a good case for WP purposes, that the book is a recognized secondary source despite being self-published. HuMcCulloch (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

User:Theroadislong has reverted my EL link to Mr. Floyd's book, on the grounds that it is "spam", and has sent a message to my Talk page chastening me for adding a promotional link. If someone other than Floyd or myself will re-revert him or her, we may eventually get it in on the 3-revert rule. The Amazon link is the only one I could find. If there is a non-commercial site that identifies the book without selling it, that might overcome the "promotional" objection. HuMcCulloch (talk) 21:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't want to comment on the specific edit, or to get involved in any way, other than to make it clear that I have made absolutely no attempt to have any mention of my book added to the Wikipedia page. And I am the only person with a commercial interest in promoting it. Whether a given edit by any other user is (or is not) in line with the content guidelines is for others to decide, but I can categorically state that there is no commercial spamming involved here. - J.P. Floyd 90.241.110.235 (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

If JPF has submitted the book for review (anywhere except the Daily Mail) then when the reviews start to appear, we should at the very least be able to link to them, as we originally did with Kirsten Seaver's book. David Trochos (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Since all active contributors seem to agree that Mr. Floyd's book is noteworthy (despite being self-published), there is no reason that David Trochos or anyone else (other than myself or Floyd) shouldn't revert Theroadislong's reversion and leave it to that user to make a case here that it is not worthy of at least an EL. If users who want it in outnumber those who want it out, that should settle the issue. Checking the 3-revert rule WP:3RR, I see that in fact it only applies automatically to the number of reverts in 24 hours, so that technically I could keep on adding it every 25 hours, but I don't want to seem recalcitrant by being the only one adding it. HuMcCulloch (talk) 16:03, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the book but you need to note that 3RR states " Fourth reverts just outside the 24-hour period may also be taken as evidence of edit-warring, especially if repeated or combined with other edit-warring behavior." It's up to Admins to judge how far "just outside" is. I try to make sure editors understand that 3RR is not something they are entitled to. Doug Weller talk 16:57, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I've added a reference to Floyd's book. I think the problem on 9/28/18 was that I mentioned the Amazon link where it was for sale, which flagged it as commercial. This time I just give the ISBN number. HuMcCulloch (talk) 20:13, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

2018 Mystic Seaport symposium - YouTube link

I see the symposium at the Mystic Seaport Museum on 21 September is going to be live-streamed on YouTube, which is great for those of us who cannot attend. Presumably the footage will be available afterwards as well, so it should be a permanent resource. Is it worth adding the URL as an external link? 90.241.110.235 (talk) 13:02, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Livestream link now added to earlier external source entry 86.190.83.143 (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Aaaaand … instantly deleted by a bot! 86.190.83.143 (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, thanks for trying! So much for my bright ideas. 90.241.110.235 (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I just reverted XLLinkBot's reversion, which is legal. Re-reversions by human users other than 86.190... (who first added the link) or myself will probably be more effective than if we do it, since the Bot will quickly be up against the 3-reversion rule but we humans won't. HuMcCulloch (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Hmm... it seems there's also a human user who finds the idea of the YouTube link objectionable. Can't say I agree, but since there's already a link to the symposium webpage I guess it's not worth pursuing. I just felt it would be a useful addition to the general store of knowledge, particularly if the results of the new scientific tests are going to be unveiled at the meeting. 90.241.110.235 (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

'Confusing' tag

Somebody has added a tag to indicate that they find the article confusing in some respects (they don't say which!). I have reworded the "Possible source identifications, 2013" section slightly in an attempt to address this. Hopefully the tag can be removed, if there are no objections. 90.253.205.141 (talk) 04:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

In the absence of any Talk Page clarification as to which aspects of the article are confusing, I've agreed with your revisions, and removed the tag. David Trochos (talk) 17:47, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. The tag was really unwarranted, as the article provides a lucid treatment of an admittedly complex subject. 90.253.205.141 (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Cantino planisphere image

Someone has helpfully added a picture of the Cantino planisphere with caption. However, the only reference to this map in the article is in the "Academic controversies" section, regarding the shape of Greenland. Wouldn't the image be better moved to that section - perhaps with the addition of a sentence or two about its Vinland-like island - or alternatively, omitted altogether? As things stand, it clutters the text of "Yale's position on the map," where it isn't even mentioned. 90.253.205.141 (talk) 11:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Raymond Clemens article

I've just added a paragraph regarding a recent article by Dr Raymond Clemens. For the record, I'd like to add that I am using a public library computer, and that other Wikipedia comments made using this IP address are emphatically not mine. 88.151.223.210 (talk) 15:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)